Extra Sauce Episode 29: The Real "Fitz" Talks About Tracking Down The Unabomber

Thursday, November 16th

00:29:50

How close is Sam Worthington's portrayal of FBI Agent James "Fitz" Fitzgerald in the Discovery Channel series Manhunt: Unabomber?  The REAL "Fitz" let's Greg and Mike know in this latest saucy episode.  Fitzgerald also gives us some amazing insight on how he and the FBI were able to track down The Unabomber( Ted Kaczynski) through his writings.  It is truly fascinating!  If you want to delve in deeper to the Unabomber case and James Fitzgerald, check out his memoirs here.

Here's a trailer for Manhunt:Unabomber:

Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.

Welcome to the extra songs podcasts. On the offensive. Would this jar of sauces. Bread. Hill. I'll mark shoots it Ohio. Don't you know what happened they took the deli tray away from extra size and we don't work without food that's right. We've I need my knees might have a goal poet you what about the pro Leno he had approval on. My Spanish olives some people have I've always wanted to have. And Italian Thanksgiving some people that not only they have the Turkey than hand in all delicious battalion. Meets Sunday in all the great stuff by mine my Fam is Italian but there is always a lasagna although MI Thanksgiving dinner. As well as a Turkey and ham and a meatloaf the I love lasagna on and lasagna I married a perfect one of the perfect food I need to eat more lasagna. Well everybody needs to be excited but yeah wanting to was not. Well Marc Hsu and I welcome you to exercise. And this week our guest is somebody that I am dying to talk to I've been obsessed lately. Waited manhunt unabomber which I Netflix is just picked up it was a discovery series. It's you know it's it's there's some. They take some literary license I believe with the series that way in recreating what happened to win you know by if you remember the unabomber. Began mailing bombs to random people in the United States in the seventies. And in the mid ninety's had still not been I drive five or apprehended now. And he'd turned out to be a guy who is living in a cabin and in the woods in Montana named Ted Kaczynski. But we are joined on exercise. By the hero of the story in his name is Jim Fitz FitzGerald he's a FBI profiler. A portrait is that he's the star of the show when your when your watching manhunt it's it's all about him back him in the in the unabomber but he was able to. Read the the manifesto of the unabomber and identify eventually who Ted Kaczynski was and it is our pleasure to welcome Jim to extra sauce for a little extra sauce on the unabomber. The beer. You you're a relatively new low FBI profiler when you're past. Join the unabomber case. Well where you were you nervous at all about that. I actually was my life was being transformed in a few different ways. For the first time in my life I was. Kind of being asked to move away from my home base of Philadelphia. Leave in my purse seven years in the FBI in the in the miniseries literally covered this. I was in New York City. And the I actually commuted every day from the northern suburbs of Philadelphia. To lower Manhattan at the two hour drive north and a true who are dried out so. Where some great cases over the years and they you know some good friends. Locked up some important people anyway promotional opportunity came up and it was. To Quantico in the book profiling unit. And I that would be the the twelve week special out of me there will be behavioral now also is criminal profiling. And all things related to that there was no graduation as they showed in the series opening up. And that actually if you when you graduate is indebted FBI agent it yourself you're too little ceremony. So it kind of exaggerated on you know but anyway. I took two weeks off will be back with my currently in the Philadelphia area. Beach. In southern New Jersey get a phone call. You know we need somebody out in separate source Cooper thirty days to work in the mob are you interest to. And that's the narcotic kick ins. And mine up. Is this test it was seventeen yearlong investigation at this point it's started about the time I started my law enforcement career. 1990s. My thirteen 76. Course the bombing started 78. You know what can I do wouldn't what Larry partly accomplished out there with a bong case. But before long it'll are coming together. Is. Is accurately portrayed in the miniseries that that you were somewhat of the idea. In the FBI office in San Francisco because is they weren't necessarily. Believers. In in in the profiling process. Yeah interestingly enough. There was a profiler sent out before me. In about. Mark of 1995. He spent about a week out there any really ruffle some feathers they didn't like how he came across it was not done Douglas. It was not him. John Douglas was retiring back years and loved doing too much traveling. I is John Douglas is sort of pass the torch to me in the straining our records be discussed the unabom case and some of the early croak well he did it. He you know he got my interest in listening to him speak about a chilling. You know some presentations at Sutter but I never realized I would be the one in fact running with that we're. All the way to a cabin in Montana which nobody knew existed at that point so I'm a part of the management itself. Did this series should have a bit more animus between. But this factor and the bosses I generally get along with the guys. They were a little bit skeptical. Especially one or two of them about you know language features to them language taking them out of that though. What sending it to the lab for fingerprint. You know getting categorized for what. They are is being used. Look for you know hairs and fibers things like that bureau is the earliest days of DNA universe. Experimentation with that but it that we didn't really know of course felt that I would biggest. And look anomalous start reading it in what what the military. Accurately was. It within the first couple days I was on the air force. I'm the one who went up don't pay you just doctor formal letter of 1985 but when he went out the left hand column sort of hidden message here. And out of the big bought you named Jim premier what do you mean hidden message. Look you read down the left hand column and it says that it is. Because everything that we're we're just working copies were originals. So we got his diary he showed it who has Kali they are picked up on that people are we had a letter for ten years. It was so. So book and I commending FitzGerald. Do you do that kind of stuff off and it so well Obama in and eat a ring with the blue barrel they are broke and food and and they wouldn't you know one little word games are I've always been into the artist's stuff and I'm convinced of the I don't that it resides here. Maybe there's other clues in the manifesto that he try to put that they are gonna trick or worried actually say something. That that is not so obviously you know we look at these things right FitzGerald from now when you're in charge of all the okay. A day bank site I think there are a lot of that that were went. One of the most interesting clues I felt was the eat your cake inhabit hill and the fact that the the you know the there was a reason why. The unabomber aryan in the manifesto had written it that way. Well otherwise and I don't claim to be the first one that found that in the but so somebody else to see it wanted just made it in a statement in passing. By the way adamant he he reversed that all proper. In the manner again I hear 185 I owed her date of the guys some odd you know writing habits he's doll. Some words like British English words in okay let me see those. And that didn't enter into the collectible that aren't significant and we are listeners out there to remind them this is free Internet order very very early Internet days you type that. Type that proverb in your circus hit a not too much to show up back then. So that was very touching and I remember saying to myself and note the 85 and a reminder do you guys. The unabomber number. Each of his paragraphs in his manifesto made it easier for us to refer to them 212 in total with 26 notes which followed. Sellout. Boat loan be old you know we have many suspects come up 2500 suspects and given. And we're looking at writing of these folks and I'm becoming the expert. Linguists even though I was not a linguist. I had a master's degree in an organizational psychology with nothing. Firm on not any kind of language science and lonely all the gardening isn't he comes up nobody ball whole lot of but it burst. They sent me this morning three page document some more documents and we'll be all their letter to the letter letter to the editor of Saturday post magazine. And down the very bottom but you can't teacher take an avid tilt you to go back here now the question yet he did that more reason because he was. Tony was be a CD is bomb making no surprise. He was so he'd be in his letter writing in a document region. He wanted to be epic in every single thing he did it. And he essentially was his bombs always function. They didn't always fill in the early days which frustrated them but they always Limbaugh may oh seriously main people now he put these letters together and these are written in. Perfect English it you can say that a type both here and there but he crosses out with a Max because he's using in 1932. Typewriter but all the sudden he had a you that you can't eat your cake and recoup because as. The certainly know by. That is actually from early modern English in the that he century outlet proverb that axiom was first used by its creator. And I can actually make sense when you raise it that way the way we sort of bad guys did in the last hundred years you can undertake any who really. Doesn't make yeah. Kaczynski what right. About it are what is correctness actually got him put behind bars. You know it seems like every one of these guys and I say these guys but I just these these high profile criminals a serial killers and stuff. I don't know does that seem like they wanna get caught like maybe it is it wasn't just a CD or did he like you think he purposely left clues because sometimes they have that air about them hours and so Smart I'll just. Wrote in their face and they'll they'll never be able find. Cabinet that question a lot of not just the belt the unabomber but other pieces I've never met a eighty. Eight prisoner yet Torre defended yet and what it had a Verizon who felt truly. Wanted to be arrested and put in jail for the rest of his life. There are some homeless people double break a window went cold night they know they get put in jail and the cold spells over and get released and that little bit different. But I hit that he and firm did not want to get arrested. I think he was getting over I know he was getting older I think he almost getting bored with it. Yet been successful at being the unabomber. 40 you know. Fifteen years. I guess in the by 9293. And he just did you know and it will be upped the ante a little bit here. I'm living in a free and happened in Montana. I want to mail these letters and bombs that people from 15100 miles away they'll never be on the track me. Let me just start saying I'm a good writer you know I hate the world that I live and let me start putting these dot CA's together these documents these systems. And as part tormenting some people and I'll write to their paper of record the New York Times and out. I'll say I have to deal for them. And that's eventually what needed offered the Dili stop bombing. If they rated his is article and that something else that he never all of them manifesto feel it referred to the guys. Is article which but. Put them back in academia to some degree yeah that's what academics do they publish articles so. So we started building all of us together than. They eventually go public but now I never thought. I'm convinced. He never thought meaning Kaczynski that he would ever be arrested and do any time in jail. Forgot the one mitigating factor is the only other person generally rote sort as a with similar themes and topics was his brother. And I guess he felt there'd be some incredible blood on there at his brother would resist saying and if he did he still wouldn't earn his older brother in meaning that. But that said mr. it is little brother there and that's what changed and around. Now you know in in the in this series. You you're you are portrayed as getting the chance to meet load with the unabomber when he's in prison because. He believes. That you share a similar philosophy. That he shared in his manifesto with regards to technology in and what it's doing to all of us to do you share that same philosophy. Com first thing up front here is. Essentially no FBI agent interviewed the unabomber. So that's all that that was all done for the shell that was all done for. That was done for the show to that this character was a composite character. The day couldn't he was arrested a few regions across the able problem and Jason happen like it. And they asked him a few questions he acknowledged the pain. The next question was whether any booby traps or Bob or the all your app and he just sat back and shook his head. And basically answer no other questions about themselves and so no substantive interview took place including body this guy. Jim FitzGerald did you like creation. Did you go off and live in the cabin and and and and tried and try to escape up into the woods and not not use your car afterwards. The that the U but we thought the first big thing. That he altered. In but it's slight story the second one is. No I never lived in the cabin at any point in time. I was. And I want to say the word I was upset with that age but I was laser focused with that the east. And I want to wait for Mike apparently a lot but the last part here of the Big Three there's a scene in I forget the episode six or seven. But there's a scene ram and a movie theater with my two older sirens and I get a page. And I go to the pay phone make a call I Telemar be right back and look at some documents. And four hours later this is white comes in and you know that never happened either. I never be ha. Ha itself that dramatic polite and literary license at the back and forth with the writer director. John Goldman himself well Benji and there were yelling matches on the phone when I first read the script. But they finally army down that this is what you know really. A Hollywood doesn't TV and we have two really good actors and salmon or great actors. Annika we got to put them in some scenes together so we sort of compromise. I was going to interview Ted Kaczynski in 2007. In my last year the FBI had arranged to go out of prison I was already out there teaching at the air force academy. And his prison in Florence is about the amount of miles from there. So I was in route at all it up for months with the correctional officer in there and Adam about twenty miles away from the prison I get a phone call itself. And the correction officer in charge says agent FitzGerald. The meeting will not take place today Ted Kaczynski once we get you back he's busy. And so he's he's in prison in 37 lockdown in the cell by himself. And what do you think that was about was that because was up because he had such a high IQ and you're you're the guy you're the guy who economy you're the guy who figured out. You know he thought he had his elaborate manuscript the news is such an intelligent guy. He in so he EP DP probably resents the fact these figures out. Yet he he he knows we're back. And he knew for a fact back in there after the first arrest he read a probable cause to search and my name is all over. In terms of having used his oh which to in fact put him in handcuffs and eventually need aren't suit and never see the light of day again. So he's always. Antipathy towards beat supported my ugly and why Ali did have a one on one confrontation with that. I did spend time in the same room and I was on the day he set. Seconds in Sacramento several years there are arrest. And we're sitting in the courtroom and someone with George Lee he's officially certain is awaiting the Marshall coming in transport and somebody else and kind of be on the road a bit. And Kaczynski looks at that Iceland is an over these eight I'm waiting back in my FBI Ali. And all of a sudden Kaczynski is mean. The look of a lifetime that no one's ever done to me before it I sort of semi swim. It is his cheeks sort of you know tighten his lips or purse and I says that. If he had paper clips rubber bands and you know start they've been chewing up. You get some help with a bomb together right there. He would have to meet at least sent my way and is that the blow me up so. There was that one one in Iraq it would mean Kaczynski. No words are spoken about thirty to 42. Deep stare I nodded my head doing a little bit out of respect say hey you know who I am now I know who you are. We both did what we had to do and we are both gonna go ought. We're going for the rest of our lives. And funny the Marshall and government stand up the cops on. He walked away at the last assault so up. Mean that was a dramatic event the but he didn't get too many people there like he gave me as. Obviously the writers chains around. As a profiler. Do you think that that he start. Killing people as a means to win and because he was so obsessed with. Technology. Ruining the human race and he wanted to get his message out or do you think he was a psychopath. Who enjoyed killing people. I didn't care all over the years not to categorize. To use metal. Help diagnosis or physical I'm sort psychological. Evaluation. I know they fired you know and he ought to in the into the believers like I'd I've certainly read is that though. It earlier letters I've read every single of the 1000 documents that we now so does happen. In which he knew about it about every topic under the sign including psychiatry. Psychology whatever. Interesting though in the in the 200 plus books. Or articles you found that it happened. The bulletins and this is favorite novelist strictly by Al was Charles Dickens. And some of his books and that you know his books. You know what they'll do cities' great expectations. There about you know young people that are are lost honor society. That he relate to that. But the only other psychological work he had was from a psychologist. In university of Minnesota I believe. And they were about the rearing rearrange. Twins reared apart. And I'm thinking why weren't you like four different articles separate ones from this professor of twins reared apart. Why would the unabomber living in the habit by himself who's not a way in. Yet has and younger brother seven years. And David is a relatively normal nine married. Late president. And of course David wanna turn anybody but he still in it these articles we Courtney knows David who won that tournament out. Anyway in terms of his overall like now I mean other people like us it's Friday and you know paranoid indicators and hung up his childhood abuse from the parents are. I don't necessarily agree with that I even root sent a letter back in. But he you're gonna have to go into sixteen. To 2016. The editor discovery people wanna be to try to set up. Another interview with. And I wrote to him by page letter right hand wrote for the court you know and it is SP computer generated letter. And try writing a 58 letters it is now Abbott about fighting and it can be a little tricky so anyway. I Ed Norton I don't I don't think you're not. I think you've got some you know issues you're dealing with deep hatred for society. And anger and but I think you know I think it's a few things in different directions in your life Cuba. You could be a regular you know god living in this society. I neglected at the letter saying by the way. This is very important I do not agree at all with the methodologies. You chose to impact. Kill people or people would bombings so that's off the table but much of what you wrote. That that much but many of the topics you discuss. In the way you were present. Because they came on the game. True you know either shortly after you wrote them are serving now two decades Kirk with the people addicted to Smartphones and technology and in and someone you were right so good for you do it positioning had to kill people to make your point you could have done in other ways to. I was saying on on the show the other day that. You know you look at a society that is addicted to social media platforms and through their cellphones and and did you know he wrote a lot about automobiles and and not being able to get food deal with without having car and I mean he. Was ahead of the team on that stuff I've been unfortunately he did it he he he he got his manifesto out there in in the wrong way but but he was as you said. Prescient about it. And then I'd a lot of experts who looked it is in the eat you know. He was brought in some ways but he wasn't all that original or philosopher one in particular Frenchman named Marty you'll. Who had written something I think all the technological society. Back in the sixties and and I'd much of the manifesto beard that electing. Ted plagiarized the but I mean he just borrowed from some of that without directly referenced it so. So it's not a lot whole original ideas in the manner that would nonetheless you know I don't brought about the B and you know codify them in some ways and like so automobiles and and big business and economy we're all gonna. And all these industries in the businesses that he would real. He wouldn't mention them by name I was gonna kick out of the fact that the only the only ones business. That the unabomber referenced in the manifesto by name. And that was the Sylvan learning center. And I wondered why that he has now opened learning center. A bit and it and it part of our grants work on it. But like. The first part of the paragraph it like a positive thing about so Bloomberg wrote a dissenter is all we get specialized. Tutoring in training that they needed you know. But the next what you can you know white watcher brain like your is that saying that he said the do these complex Hugo system run by big business of and here turns out we now about an hour investigation want it to you. The qualities Sylvan learning center in how about. And that he at one point in his boredom he went there offered his services to tutor. Two young people remember he's a Ph.D. in mathematics he wrote. You know very well known scientific papers in the field of you know boundaries systems and and whatever and mathematics. At Brenda that help us. So the burning under people's. You have mr. isn't yet we think we'll ask them you know. Those seem quite at the background. Of course he never told people he was a Ph.D. In manic he just that I am. Ted is in economics at some would bat so it's funny now that things he picked up any picked out put in new manifesto other things he left off but. Yet he also out of frustration with women and I mean he never had a successful relationship with a woman. He swore in his writings he was federal users' right. We're not meant to be record. Yeah he swears that heterosexual he seemed that no interest and you did go through a stage at the University of Michigan in the mid eighties. Shortly before that it in mid sixties. The mid eighties what poppies and universities. But in mid sixties he went to a stage where people about getting a sex change. Operation people could walk into a doctor's office and the procedure would start the next morning group operating table of no mister cousins either of the two to three year. Process that you know we have to study you'd. Which you'll manage and all that but so he walk out of there in you know readers are only two people stand idly what he wrote a biography. By he would never had sexual relations with a woman I was always very frustrating to. And he wrote about a very much so when you wonder how much that contributed. To the fact that he just had a GOP would never try to do winner. The only men were his target and a peace exceeded every time that we skilling were seriously rein them. It it's. It is so interesting to tie the thank you for giving us a little bit extra so sun on the on the unabomber Ted Kaczynski and and your profiling of hand and you know why I've really -- and I'm obsessed with television so I've really enjoyed. Getting getting to catch and I Netflix and and I and I. They may have and if they made your life more interest to your last in trusting my you'd you've led a pretty amazing life it's. Well I. I thank you are saying that I have quite frankly it and they have about five years ago people only bit you can put this all pretty. And I did and I haven't read book memoir series out there. It's called a journey to the center of the mine I always like you'll burn areas that are the earth so I borrowed from him and book ones growing up in Philly in all the trials and tribulations of the in the 60s70s. Who is my eleven years as a police officer in suburban facility all kind of gunplay and and the guys in politics. And book three the one that is now in July is here for the summer. The first and FBI yours might walk readers through. My three months to the FBI academy going to the city work back kidnappings. Extortion you name it and the last long chapter is on the unabom which site. No loud no literary license or no composite chargers it is realities I I think anybody. That would want to get even further into the Bob gates would enjoy reading that book. Well thanks for me and against the wall a lot to get John again. Separate. I found that riveting but I'm in two with the true crimes so I don't know if minded guys but I. It's my head's gonna explode. He was a virgin. I didn't know that he I don't think anybody really knew who the hell I know I didn't know that and that was a huge story yeah ninety's. I had no idea that now. You know so that it was. It's always like a collection of things that contribute to write yeah yes and I've I'm really frightened because I sent my daughter to a Sylvan learning sent you dealt with. For a little while for tutoring allied I'm gonna monitor her closely hit the record. Is that. Very I mean and it's amazing the way those guys. Spend. Hours and days. Analyzing everything and trying to figure out what. You know. Eat the cake inhabit to really means and why is that in there and and find that writing from him. Decades earlier in the letter it I mean insists they said they went 2000. And doc yes yeah. What an amazing story as you grow so I highly recommend that he checked out manhunt unabom. Flicks. Cisco. Yet thanks for checking out extra sauce. If you enjoy it make sure you subscribe on iTunes horse picture or Google play in will be back. Next week where. Another episode next.
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