Extra Sauce Episode 14: We Talk To Journalist Tom Nugent From "The Keepers"

Friday, June 2nd

00:31:51

After obsessing over it for weeks, Greg and Mike talk to Tom Nugent, the journalist who's reporting helped reopen the investigation into the murder of Sister Cathy Cesnik which is the subject of the Netflix series The Keepers.  

Transcription

Welcome to the extra sauce pod cast it's one thing. On the event dissolve who. Would this jar of sauces. Grant Hill. Honestly can't wait for this desire and I have not been so obsessed over the television program. The sense. I guess making a murderer I and a and you by the way issue also right out and loses its it's a horrible story but it's it's just an amazing story how it unfolds yeah we're on we're gonna get extra sauce. This week. On the murder of a nine in Baltimore in 1969. Which is the subject of a Netflix documentary. Call the keepers and you'll probably be may be sick of hearing me tell you you have to watch keepers but. Whether you're Catholic or not you have to watch a keepers because this murder exposes. I believe. And our guest believes. A massive conspiracy to not only kill a nun who knew about sexual abuse horrible sexual abuse at a Catholic school. But to keep those that were involved in that murder a secret. -- win with regard to the Catholic Church with regard to the Baltimore police department. Who with regard to politicians. All of that yeah and and if it works for her. The guests are gonna talk to him a few moments. It's quite possible that no one would ever know anything about bit about why she was murdered and a day it's just discuss that I mean I. You. He hit the church was so powerful I wanna ask our guest about this but the church was so powerful. That everybody was afraid. It hit it to hold them accountable. Where is it was generations Israelis and Endesa as they mentioned the documentary was the Baltimore the first. Catholic archdiocese in the country right so you know you have your your great grandparents your grandparents or parents. All instilling that Daniel yeah you know and you and you saw that you see that in the keepers like how the parents raise these kids to be you know good Catholics have the. Kris wanted your kid to do something it was an honor it of the priest wanted to renegade like. If you're you create the biggest honor is being altar boy right got to admit it but certainly going to Catholic school was an honor. If you're a woman at this particular Catholic school being called downed the C father Mascoll who was the the the villain in the documentary clearly and and obviously in my opinion and realized. It was an honor and it's just. In this particular documentary is so important to watch not only. Because. It exposes. Awful things that went on for an extended period of time but also. It reminds us and I wanna talk to our guest about that as well reminds us how important it is from a journalism point of view. That that that job. Remains. An effective. Eight you know it doesn't become obsolete it we need we need to have journalists who are investigating their eyes and calling. Of people out and and and I otherwise. You know the world that he is is is run by. Aid people who can use their authority to do absolutely horrible price though especially now and a in the fake news Ara only guys we need guys who do it for real we are human yeah and who do it for real. And and follow throw the and I obviously. A big part of keepers is that there are some citizen journalists write Gemma and Abby who get involved because they attended this Catholic school Baltimore and and they wanna find out what happened to their favorite non and in their favorite teacher so. Rose was the most disturbing part of the document or for you when Jane doe is describing yeah what happens in the. In the office and that's that's as though the details she goes into which really surprised me as you know the victims they don't want to. The of those that go public as you know like a Netflix documentary to describe what happened of them and just really just half listening. Watching and listening to her saying this and it's just to her credit she's just able to go on and to her credit. How she remains faithful guy yeah well you relies on the rare is it I don't know how how can I can be well I guess sessions says. It would be tough for me if our Catholic right to. Here this watch this story. And remain encounter so but that's what that's why we call face right yeah exactly and it's amazing that she she had any left where you ring we describe we raised Catholic no I've not his counsel might my father thought organized religion was a scam knowing that any any raised me to believe that we raise Scientologist I know you don't know and I'm going to hear it right up up up up and down on fat and Harry so obviously I'm not going to the Tom progress. Yes I was a race religious at all and so maybe that's what I can understand what someone like. Like her would would still have faith now are and then you know you have aura. Were gonna learn a few moments that. And there are further developments in this case which I think is one of the positives. When it comes to do something like keepers airing on Netflix you know I mean that allows. Certainly for an opportunity. Voters fair or other things to come out and right and and pressures. Other people correct united to maybe come out what stuff now and I'm not saying the victims on same people that may have been involved or have information about people that were involved and a but you know governments watching this I don't wanna get. Caught up in this maybe I can make a deal well let's get to our guests. If you've seen the keepers then you know who he is if you haven't yet he is the journalists. Is that basically began the investigation. That has certainly shaken Baltimore and now is I guess shaking the world because of the documentary on Netflix. His name is Tom Nugent and he's been investigating. The murder of sister Kathy for over 22 years. Tom thanks for joining us for a little extra socks on the keepers. Thank you very much pleasure to be here with you because. This story and what it represents. 422 years and has seen it seemed very important to me as a journalist and so as I always did. Telling the world about these terrible problems and looking at them this carefully and accurately as we can. Is there is a good thing for journalists to be doing in my opinion. I'm obsessed with written I only watched it on Netflix YouTube and is this that it when it comes to things you've covered in your long career is this the one. The that you are most focused on. Absolutely. I did my first interview on this whole thing in in nineteen. Ninety. Fives so we're what 22 per. Much of it has been part time and much you know have a long periods when I had to make a living braced for kids is a freelance writer and catalog will get her attention. That that's certainly challenging. And it's right. But around that I I always wanted to work on this. Are a number of reasons as so yeah at this. This spring as a vast elaborate all of the most amazing kind of mysterious. Almost unknowable. Forces and so. To work on this is to work on philosophy won a lot and I studied philosophy as a kid and loved. Nature look. Question about what is real. The keepers. Tells the story of the murder. Sister Kathy says nick who. Was a nun who was killed in in 1969. And this story begins to. Play out and in in many different ways. However and until. The bravery of a woman that was that was called Jane doe in the ninety's who came forward. Who talked about the sexual abuse that she suffered. At the Catholic schools that sisters. Cappy tot hat. At it that murder the murder of a sister Kathy had not really it'd been an all tied in to. Her occupation are Guerrero life's occupation as a non right. That's absolutely correct the police have known about it about that they had that worked on. Links. Clues that they had suggesting a Catholic Church connection. But you're absolutely correct. And so would the capers the first public mention. All the links to the church. You know from the church to be murdered nun came about in the mid 1990s. When. Jane doe issue is no man now now known of course as you Weiner. In a documentary when she first went public and said hey he appraised took me to say that nuns body. In this vacant field outside Baltimore. That was indeed the first. Mention of a possible shirt church connection publicly and so it's absolutely her long years or courageous. Effort which I thought they did a terrific job of illustrating in the documentary out. The Gator myself many times and it you can imagine it was a very delicate careful. You have an ethical obligation not to injure anyone in the cabin with a number of the victims that I darker. You go sometimes you have to have a relative amendments that would have been you're negotiating you talk about look at this it's too upsetting to have tapped for yet. You're just you're here are your cousin and her friend or whoever is. Well we'll that they had and will break it off then I'll I'll be back period of months if that's when you want a TARP or never you know on a talk. First things first we don't want to hurt anybody. So those kinds of tiny baby steps were what she took years and years later I mean. Who gradually get through our route to remembering this and then beginning to present the kind of amazing detail. That you saw on the documentary. You know with you know that the murder of sister Kathy. And the police connections. And the power of the Catholic Church had in that area. Where UN any time while you were working on this did you feel. Threatened by someone or influenced possibly to go one way or another. This and that's a very good question in my opinion. I. And I laughed because I'm such a trick in physically. I mean that you had spread that they. I've been warned by a by everybody from older reporters through church official. You know. To our longstanding. Higher ranking deep cover. Police informant. That is an officer who led many of the efforts to. Captured sex abuse criminals. Or twenty years. And he has more than once it is staying as warm watcher 2 o'clock Nugent. This is bigger bad news now anti opera that you know and there are people involved. And I'll naturally and erratic anyways so. Many nights like a joke I tell people it not have been in my hotel in Baltimore to save on expenses. And I hear footsteps in the hall and it's like go okay. But they all right you're. I came out of that old fashioned Latin world of catholicism and so for me. It wasn't get the fear that maybe somebody wanted to blackmail or something for digging into this. It was also could running those demons and the promises of hell and terrifying kind of backdrop that he would like many Irish Catholic of course you know we're the world's best that bad bad bad. Quickly swallowing and digesting all of that really scary. Seem analogy and help fire from the Bible back in the late forties and early 1950s here remember it was another universe. On the answering your question that might have been weird. There really throughout the. How much of a factor. Was the respect. For the Catholic Church that that it was hounded. Into its subject's not only by parents but by. By priests by other parishioners how much of a factor was that perhaps. And the way in which is police. Responded to this to this murder of of this non. Did a terrific question I must say and because it points to the deep dive to depths of this. I Bachmann said this in the history what happened to talk about so and all of those folks in the history of nineteenth century Ireland. I know our time is short so I'll just give it two sentences. Under British colonialism. The church in Ireland with all powerful I'm hardly the first person to point this out historians routinely describe. The freak would god because it bad parent colonial world and it's not just the Irish it happened in many cultures. In the nineteenth century and earlier and earlier entry when the British empire who you know was most powerful. Organization on earth and they ruled taxis and they ruled commerce and industry they invented if you will be in cultural revolution. In that war where you had no power as an indigenous native Irish person all you have what happened and the priest was god. If you spoke single word of the respect. The consequences would have been terrible and and so no child in my group who had come home instead I was abused by father O'Malley you know. Normally would have been believe you'd say I terrifying prospect of being told. You know the double was in new Gary in space sectors than it was four powers that let these greens but Babylon named yet. Rain with an iron hand you know it was cool and absolutely there's something terrible was going on and no one dared say a word. As someone who was raised that way you still think the Catholic Church that's your church. Like you haven't you you've given up on the Catholic Church. I I'm not a practicing go to mass every Sunday Catholic. But I truly am a fan of the gospel to those who love your neighbor and try to do the right thing if you can read all your flaws. Because that message is what we need to live side. Impact that's why I've done all the work for twenty years and several people in the archdiocese of Baltimore said to me you are actually helping us. Topped out there covering this case. For so many years and and we see year addict in the in the keepers and all all the evidence you have and all your notes. Deed do you believe that father Mascoll. Ordered this murder of a sister Kathy. I grew. I do I think that. There was a series of events that night at her apartment house the Kerry countless. Numerous investigators have there's a lot of step in the the keepers as well the documentary. As pointed out that there are far too many England. Between. The principal players who were involved that evening Eric other Mascoll. And several other abuser priests we don't have to go talk and I know to go into all of that but I should note for the record. There are right now the Baltimore county police. Had told WG CTV which is CBS in Baltimore only only a week or so ago. We are actively investigating. Three more murders. Of teenagers. Connected to another murder and two of these. These. How would you agree when George Malek who wanted to and was killed and lived a block them from Mascoll church. And let this summer camp Bible camp with him every summer. And Louis are behind a nearby church that was being a pastor at at the moment the same a few months after the US. Same time period same location located only a mile or so mile and a half from Mascoll church. Murdered never saw him get three unsolved killing in Pam Conyers and I'll I'll mention the word name. I can't connections to the church to this group of great. I don't solve murders and we know from our recent investigative work can't get too specific here but I'll tell you. There are at least two more murder is here. Who we know for a fact are linked to the same group there's a very ominous aspect that is all of this a track within these girls. A putting them up in a big hotel lie in Baltimore and and basically selling them to political people cops. State Department people if you want to those that are even according to some of the detective work it's been done. The question of what really was at work here back then and how far the tentacles reach are extremely disturbing I must tell you. As as Jane doe says and forgive my French those (%expletive) because. It it it is our. I don't I personally believe that brother Bob was by the crew yes and Vito I believe. And I believe that there is much more to. Discovered and and written about on in that direction and I think they do their best to try to suggest that India. In the documentary I'll mention. One point if you don't think it's extraneous namely. The documentary points out. And farther Koop told me. More than once in a lengthy interviews. We went to the movie easy rider that night we went to dinner and then went to the movie we wanted just to discuss it could have been talking about the Big Easy writer moving in that area Vietnam War. And so we went back to run residence at the jesuit community and we were in the little talking about. The movie. When the phone rang oh my god its sister Helen had Erekat and sister Kathy has not come home all of your road here and we jump in the car. And ran up to the two Baltimore from Annapolis to drive maybe thirty minutes. Help. But the bordering on the pampered Baltimore. Is their worst day ever report of the missing out. Says and the subsequent briefly on the screening in the can't purge quote. Whether it is companions remember it easy rider Garrett if we wrote together. Told the stand this morning that he too was concerned. He'd gotten a call at his residence at the Christian Brothers monastery in belt bill forty miles away. And as soon as he got that call he rushed also had his car. To be. To the carriage as they help. Well obviously both accounts and that the correct. And and there are other reasons to believe that some of the other commentary on father code is not correct. And so I can only say that. That commercial line of inquiry I've been able to mind is some some kind of scenario in which epic Erekat that night. There was confrontation. Sister Kathy was told you're not going to talk about this you're not going to go public. And an argument ensued and somebody. Hit the hit that none. Passing through the pilot. The main out of meant to killer. You know directly but suddenly what I've come to understand is. Probably almost undoubtedly they suddenly we're in a situation where oh my god she's not breathing now what do we did at that. Or in my opinion having studied this for so many years. They call the authorities. Jesuits just Margaret we've got a big problem right here in Baltimore. And the archdiocese. We've got a problem you have to remember one thing in 1975. On the map the leaves Keogh. But none had been dead for five years you can just continuing nothing has changed and he'd go to the Chancery their headquarters of the archdiocese of Baltimore. And become for the next five years the director of psychological services for the Poconos school system in in Baltimore. Is running the entire you know there's a problem should we believe out of school or the group therapy given the psychological tests it's better better. And the guys running all of that for all of the schools at the Chancery is Spiderman at my my feeling is probably. He had the arrest all the way up to the cardinal later the car dealers said archbishop who is now running. Let that amateur it was the previous start Richard was ordered let. He has the brass in the on the other hand because he wanted to say to them it's clear the ball. There were three other views decrease in executive posts of leadership during that same five year period in the midst Lebanese and what do they won't what we're saying to. Where are. Mean you guys don't you guys don't like what we're doing here you know like stand upon and all these programs when revenues are so terrible. That is better ask yourself one question. If we go public with that knowledge as you know about the murder and you won't masculine so mothers around. And you confidence that you were accessories to murder centrally how how wet broke out. Besides school. The only living person. Who could be charged appears to be Edgar Davids and do you believe that he was involved in the murder. It's an opinion of course yes let the evidence in the evidence there's a ton of evidence that he had a group of other. Other people who work here out of jail than in trouble with the law. Suffering from stupid addiction and various kinds. And also suffering from some psychiatric issues that they formed a loose confederation. I'll sort of what do what can I say corrupt gophers. Who would serve. These abuser priests in that area. As well in other words we've got a problem. And you get to come and help put take care of a problem yes father whatever you say whatever let them. Shall now but but also they were that because of their in the Catholic Church right because they want they thought it was right. To support the church right. That's right at what part of the on going. Tenor of the times this group of people as reported in that documentary. Word we're deeply troubled and in the we're doing all kinds he's very involved in the in a couple of these other murders that I just mentioned that. That have we didn't make it into the documentary at the is that that the police have told television WJ say. Where now digging into that we think there's a link from those two murders etc. back to. This gang and guys and then that preach about while playing the true it is made me question. My entire understanding. Of what really. Was right forest for us. In communities like that during that for example the Baltimore county police have told WGC again. We are now looking actively define the four policemen that we believe were ripping these girls in this hotel on route forty. And that they and that sometimes at the act at rectory it church rectory a couple of them. And and and we know it that was occurring two of them are dead we don't live with names are we are speaking hoping we can't. Uncover that might mourners. When you start to realize that you had some kind of level of police interaction with these priests. And that nobody had the power to erupt this. Politicians are also named in the different kinds of witness statements let me just say one other. Truly different witnesses have gone to the police. One cold a high ranking detect you're gonna filed paperwork in the mid ninety's. But a policeman also showed big sister Kathy. Have a different locations and gain then Nigerian what are. Was taken through allegedly. At a third witness who was a student in the our captain parochial school woodlands town where mask who was in charge. Holds several other people who come forward. We saw the body lying in some pushers near homes ferry road and so on right on the major lands down. And and shoot historical in the is legend all through that part of Baltimore accounting that this woman who has since led to the South America and terrorist that she would be harmed if it would change so I was so this isn't like Vietnam 11 corinthians. Is warning that this guy has fallen corruption in his. That doesn't hold fast panorama of witnesses who told the police and what happened to that paperwork. Aren't high ranking police source says. We finish the paperwork about the woman who said that another that a cop showed her the body himself. And it passed up the chain and we were told we're not going there by the prosecutors and so on. But let's leave that alone let sleeping dogs lie and nothing ever came out. Where for update purposes. They have exhumed now schools body you know and in in Maryland. That's correct without a cigarette butt near the body. How Sam told and they have tests that they did not and presumed father at the body. And they did not. Confirmed that. That that DNA was hit. Although you have that's a definite is that you know you wanna ask who were. Working dubbed nav forty years ago we had a and so on but they heard it. You think bill exhume Billy Schmidt spotty. A boy that's a good question I hope so. It's very hard to know and I want to just be careful here. I'm telling you this is a hall of mirrors he will there would be a season two of the keepers. I I cannot answer that I have no Lou I know I mean the I saw an interview that Ryan White the director is asking me if I don't envision one at this time who knows. Is so vast undertaking I think it took those guys for three years to. That want to get yourself. But I would not be immediately leave with that comment I would not be surprised there are too many unanswered questions. It's a matter of fact I think there are gigantic unanswered questions as well as a reporter answered number one is. What was the difference between the world we thought we lived here. And the real. World. That is an analyst with provocative and will be endlessly fascinating question that I think is worth. Spending time on any bad spirit I know I certainly personally hope they continue. Well if if I order be asked after this interview. What what's the one thing I take away from it. I take away from and how important. Journalists are and I admire. Your life's. Work choice and and the passion that you put into this and without people like Q and by the way it's a field that. Is increasingly hard as you mentioned to make a living in unfortunately. But we're out but without those who choose that profession. Things like this can happen and there's nobody watching and there is nobody holding anybody accountable. Well thank you very much and of course I thank you for the work you're doing right now you're living Tibet. Ideal and that goal. And let me just say one thing historically about trying to play you know mr. armchair historian we note in the history of the twentieth century that human beings are capable. Of the most. Atrocious behavior. We go to radio silent. If people are silenced and a terrified and unwilling to being unwilling to dig. Thing. Go to college go to learn you learn critical thinking and learn the skills of writing I'm organizing information. Democracy and our way of life is not a gimme. In my opinion it's going to be. Heard Tom thank you very much for joining us and giving us a little extra sauce. On the murder of sister Kathy says that. You're absolutely welcome and I salute you for what you're doing keep up the good work thank you both very by. I had the same exact feeling. When he brought up that there are now three other murders that I did and that's why I apologize for using media via Ford but I I have the IOJ in use that are so I say. A same exact feeling that she did she is well when you have every right to ask or well some cheap but you know I don't wanna give away everything in the shell but. She learns that the archdiocese is is denying something with regard to. Another victim and and she says to me pretty much the exact same things I mean I. And assist it sits just horrifying to believe OK so he said that they were I was just like what three or four of yes yes I you know with all the all the girls who went through that one school the Keogh school there ya ya. It's got to be more than that followed an earlier time that mass goals in charge of that school tomorrow this city's well yeah accept him right well how. I mean you're right here Boston we when we use are similar yes yes but how many other cities are out there. There waiting you know now. On great guests I mean honestly and that's a guy who loves these passionate about what jas passionate he's a word here it doesn't do it he's not doing it the year rich days now he's. It's amazing though. I that should be good enough plug view if you can avoid watching the keepers after hearing that. And then you know your bag your better than I am so. Thanks to Tom Nugent very joining us on exercise this week. And I remind you that you should thrive when he is broad. ITunes or Google players pitcher. We were always asking for. You can always tune in for more exercise next week.